Daily Kos

Pat Tillman’s dead.  Am I next?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 12:25:35 AM PDT

I, like all of you, am a proud self described liberal.  Of all of the Edwards campaign donors last quarter who reported "Military" as their occupation, I am responsible for 10% of those donations.  I recently overpaid, for a good cause, for an autographed book written by John Edwards to support Yearly Kos.  My only child is named Kennedy. I have credentials. If you doubt this, look at my past diaries.  I am no troll.

I also happen to be a Soldier, a Noncommissioned Officer, serving in an elite Army unit in Afghanistan.

I mean no disrespect. I just hope to offer another perspective on this conspiracy theory.  Pat Tillman was killed by friendly fire. I do not dispute this. It was covered up by many field grade Army officers (including at least one of my former commanders), as well as the upper echelons of the Department of Defense, if not higher. I do not dispute this.  I would, however, dispute that Tillman was purposely killed by his own comrades for political reasons.  

There was an earlier diary that posted points that would lead one to believe that Tillman was assassinated.  Again, I mean no disrespect to the author.  Americans have not only a right, but a duty to question what our government tells us, and to speak out if the answers we get are not to our liking.  I will use that author’s points as the basis for this diary, and add a few of my own.

I cannot stress enough that I do not mean to belittle anyone who does not believe that Pat Tillman’s death was anything other than a terrible accident.  To the diarist I will be issuing counterpoints to; I applaud you for taking a stand and exercising that right which is purposely the first.

There was a concerted cover-up about Tillman's death involving the highest level of military command, including 3-star Lt. General Philip R. Kensinger,  3 additional generals and at least a total of 9 officers.

I do not dispute this. This is, by any standard, reprehensible and disgusting conduct.  As a Soldier, I do not know that there is an appropriate punishment for anyone involved in the cover-up.

Evidence was destroyed within hours of his death, including his bloody uniform, body armor, a journal (he kept one since he was 16 which was "lost"), and possibly other personal effects.

This, while wrong, is not surprising.  It happens.  I’ve been assigned to inventory the personal effects of a Soldier killed in action.  I did everything according to regulation. I am nothing if not honest.  However, when the personal effects returned to the United States, the bulk of the items were missing.  I have been informed there is an investigation in progress, but no one has asked me any questions and I do not know the status of this.  I hope this is because it is obvious by the paper trail that I was not involved in any wrong doing.  My point is this: this sort of things happens.  The process of the return of personal effects involves a lot of bureaucracy to act as checks and balances.  But what it also means is the items go through a lot of hands.  There is an unimaginable amount of paperwork involved, to included multiple copies of the inventory and chain-of-custody documents. However, we all know that there is little that can be done to stop someone who knows a system and wants to get around it.

With regards to uniform items, I am not 100% sure of the procedure, but I would assume that items that have blood on them would normally be destroyed as a biological hazard or for OPSEC concerns.

Tillman’s noble sacrifice was being used for pro war propaganda purposes at the highest levels.  Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld wrote a personal letter to Tillman after he enlisted, (Chronicle 9/25/05) Bush eulogized him on May 1, 2004 (9 days after Tillman’s death)  and in a video message at Cardinals Stadium in the fall of 2004, and of course Faux News played endless hours of Tillman as the All American war hero, including Coultergeist, "Tillman was an American original: virtuous, pure and masculine like only an American male can be."

If these senior military leaders knew of the factual circumstances with regards to Tillman’s death (not much of a stretch of the imagination) this conduct is despicable.  It does not however prove that anyone murdered Pat Tillman for political reasons.

Pat Tillman was a well-read, Bay Area native, who told his buddy, Spc. Russell Baer, "You know, this war is so f— illegal",  he was "totally was against Bush", supported Kerry for President, and had planned to meet with anti-war activist Noam Chomsky upon his return home.

While I have no appointments with Noam Chomsky, this pretty much describes me.  I make no secret of my political views or my views on the wars in which we find ourselves today.  It is widely known in my unit that I am a self-described liberal.  When a picture of George W. Bush was hung in my workplace, I hung a picture up of Al Gore with the words "Albert Gore Jr., Winner of the 2000 Presidential Election". It is still hanging today.

I have been ridiculed for my beliefs; usually, in jest, but sometimes in serious discussions.  Sometimes the discussions have become heated.  But never have I feared for my safety in a place where everyone walks around with a rifle and ammunition 24/7.  Never has the hostility of said discussions lasted longer than the discussion itself.  None of my brothers in arms who are staunch Republicans has disowned me as a battle buddy or fellow Soldier.  No one has ever threatened my life.  I would die for these men, and I believe they would die for me too.

Pat Tillman's voice against the war would have been DEVASTATING to Bush in the SUMMER of 2004.

This may be true, but do you think it would have changed the course of these wars?  Do you think anyone else thought it would?  

The love a Soldier feels for his fellow Soldier is unmatched by any other camaraderie I have ever known.  It is a different kind of love and trust that you can only understand if you have worn a uniform.  It is not greater than a love of family, but it is different and quite possibly equal.  Maybe this is why I married another Soldier.

I love the men I serve with.  I love the men who serve whom I have never met.  I get a lump in my throat every time I read the casualty reports.

Leaders are charged with a higher calling.  We are charged with the lives of our Soldiers.  We are trusted with their lives and expected to possess courage, competence and candor and use these attributes to lead Soldiers in battle.  Our Soldiers, our commanders and the American people depend on us every day to keep safe the greatest heroes of our Country.

While the acts of the Commanders to cover up the circumstances around Tillman’s death are despicable and in conflict with all the values of an Army leader, I cannot believe that a Commander at any level would order the death of one of his men.  There is a bond between a leader and his men in which they, everyday, mutually trust one another to insure that they live to see one more sun rise.  To tell me, as a Soldier and a Leader, that another Leader would order the death of one his men, is like telling me the earth is flat.

Army medical examiners performing the autopsy were "suspicious" and believed that murder was a possibility. (AP)

The examiner went so far as to request that the Criminal Investigation Unit open a criminal investigation.

That request was denied.

This is suspicious, but that is all it is: suspicion.  The medical examiners believed that murder was a possibility.  There is nothing conclusive as it was not investigated.  In addition, the Criminal Investigation Division works independently and outside of the chain of command.  Therefore, it would be impossible for an order to have come from the chain to CID.

One of the Army Rangers (an elite, highly-trained, light infantry special operations unit) at the scene mistook a 5’ 11"  200 pound clean-shaven NFL player for a bearded, headressed Taliban hill soldier at  a distance of less than 10 yards.  (if you believe it was friendly fire...)

The claim that the Tillman was shot from 10 yards is not fact.  While examining the body, there was suspicion that he may have been shot at close range. However, there was no investigation into this. Yes, it is something to think about, but we shouldn’t make accusations that are not supported by fact.  I am not an expert in ballistics, and I’d also assume that whoever made a passing observation that the bullet may have come from as close as ten yards is not either.  

Also of note, Tillman was assigned to a battalion under the 75th Ranger Regiment.  This unit is classified as "non-conventional".  In civilian-speak, it means they are badass professionals who no one messes with because they know what they are doing.  When these guys patrol, they don’t shave. They usually patrol in baseball caps as opposed to Kevlar helmets.  They disregard the usual strict uniformity of the military in favor of a "whatever keeps you alive" approach.  Tillman more than likely had a beard, was not wearing a Kevlar helmet, was wearing a sterilized (meaning nothing that would distinguish him as a U.S. Soldier) uniform if he was wearing a military uniform at all, and wearing gear that was not standard Army issue.

Fact:  The citation of the circumstances for the Silver Star was a complete fabrication, as newly released materials demonstrate: AP

No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene - no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.

It has been established that there was a cover-up of the fact that Tillman died as a result of friendly fire.  This is not news.  This quote does not serve to prove that Tillman was murdered for political reasons.

The Bush Administration has so far refused to provide documents requested by Congress on this issue, providing only 2 communications between the White House and the Dept of Defense between 4/22 (day after death) and 5/29 (day WH announced fratricide cause of death).

The Administration not releasing documents should not lead anyone to believe any thing other than that they are conducting business as usual.  More, than likely, this is to shield additional military personnel from being named in the cover-up.

Here are a couple facts that weren’t noted in that diary:

Specialist Bryan O’Neal, who witnessed Pat’s death has come clean about the investigation and what happened in that incident. Why would he have only told the partial truth, in acknowledging that Pat died of friendly fire, as opposed to revealing that he was shot intentional from 10 yards away, if that were in fact the case.

Pat Tillman’s brother Kevin was also an Army Ranger serving in the same unit as Pat.  Kevin was part of the same operation in which Pat was killed.  If someone was ordered to kill Pat Tillman for political reasons, why would he have done so in such close proximity of Tillman’s own brother?

[Correction: I previously wrote that Kevin was part of the element that fired on Pat's.  This was erroneous. See comments for clarification]

I hope I have provided some perspective here that you may not have seen.  Please take all this into consideration before making any judgments.

Tags: Pat Tillman, Kevin Tillman, military, Afghanistan, Recommended, personal (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 267 comments

  •  tips or flames (252+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Kimberley, MoDem, cat, vicki, chrississippi, Terri, northsylvania, lanshark, raatz, espresso, cosbo, Gooserock, Pandora, Unstable Isotope, Powered Grace, emal, Stoy, TheGreatLeapForward, Shockwave, MsSpentyouth, lysias, gaff98, waytac, rhubarb, eeff, The Baculum King, Plutonium Page, frisco, dash888, sobermom, ilona, SallyCat, 2lucky, Matilda, object16, Walt starr, bumblebums, exNYinTX, Jerome a Paris, Caneel, regis, Paulie200, shermanesq, RubDMC, ReneInOregon, I am Spartacus, baba durag, Mary Julia, Rupert, CalvinV, AlyoshaKaramazov, stevej, Bensdad, Dont Just Stand There, boilerman10, vmibran, otto, LondonYank, jandey, BruinKid, maven98, Mber, dmsilev, Cedwyn, sidnora, celticshel, Reed Richards, revsue, Janet Strange, A Chicagoan in Naples, kharma, kredwyn, Moody Loner, businessdem, Chamonix, BarnBabe, Goldfish, churchylafemme, niteskolar, joan reports, RebeccaG, Dave925, blonde moment, MH in PA, djtyg, ybruti, kd texan, eve, Marc in KS, thereisnospoon, We hold these truths, kathy in virginia, sawgrass727, Tirge Caps, rapala, Fabian, 3goldens, tle, bellevie, Elise, blueyedace2, baccaruda, Webster, clammyc, Simplify, truong son traveler, dbsf, Clem Yeobright, david78209, EJP in Maine, cackyp, Turkana, Lepanto, kldave, cris0000, Penman, pasadena beggar, Karmafish, CarolynC967, EdlinUser, thered1, eastvan, dunderhead, sheddhead, Ice Blue, illyia, bmaples, bjedward, rb608, Rydra Wrong, The Raven, moodyx, Shotput8, Anna M, pacotrey, sodalis, dazed in pa, sbdenmon, Dunvegan, JackTheIntelligentDesigner, Spathiphyllum, JanL, Ekaterin, empathy, distributorcap, TMP, Asinus Asinum Fricat, Paper Cup, Over the Edge, maryru, sadair, Nowhere Man, MagisterLudi, Strawberrybitch, Prof Dave, Paul Ferguson, FrankFrink, mattinla, Major Danby, trashablanca, BachFan, kraant, Keone Michaels, vigilant meerkat, hungrycoyote, stonemason, Yellow Canary, LanceBoyle, Hear Our Voices, kestrel9000, Naniboujou, MTmofo, tbetz, blueoasis, SherriG, StrayCat, A Siegel, Lashe, nonnie9999, arbiter, Caoimhin Laochdha, bleeding heart, steep rain, Demena, ER Doc, Jax, MBNYC, llbear, va dare, frankzappatista, Carbide Bit, kurt, crystal eyes, Blicero, Temmoku, ms badger, slksfca, embra, DBunn, seabos84, bigchin, One Pissed Off Liberal, sarasson007, darrkespur, marykk, anue, dotsright, Cocker Mom, godislove, army193, Dartagnan, zinfandelfan, VA02 femocrat, DvCM, Jimdotz, lurks a lot, Coolwateroverstones, The Angry Rakkasan, jhop7, Rumarhazzit, KJC MD, Zydekos, willb48, Counselor730, LAMaestra, BustaVessel, tfatha, MyBrainWorks, rogerdaddy, sima, lisastar, gfv6800, JesusQ, RickMassimo, dotster, zerone, crazynewmusic, Peperpatch, The Overhead Wire, skohayes, Indecent, robroser, Happy Days, Wek, geomoo, rock the ground, Taget, kyril, petulans, vanyel, Tyrannocaster, Issek

    Also, I'll answer any questions you may have, to the extent that I can.

    Also, much respect to the diarist who I have posted my diary in reply to.

    VetVoice.com, The Voice of America's 21st Century Patriots.

    by RockRichard on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 12:17:55 AM PDT

    •  Could be me you're talking about.... (19+ / 0-)

      if it is, thanks, and the reasonable doubt factor you raise was a big part of why I created that with little or no original text. The jury is still out, and this response to what I put together (if it is my piece you refer to) is a lot more reasonable and worthy of a read than this one, which is.....what it is.

    •  Thank you for your service and your diary. (28+ / 0-)

      Your honorable and forthright words give me hope that our nation's military may still retain the morale required to defend us against real enemies once this disgraceful episode is over.

      Regardless of how Pat Tillman actually died, whether by friendly fire or by outright murder, the manipulation of the facts for political gain by this administration is dishonorable and disgraceful.

      You, RockRichard, stand up in complete contrast.

      Bless you.

      If you dance with the devil, then you haven't got a clue; 'Cause you think you'll change the devil, but the devil changes you. - illyia

      by illyia on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 04:36:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Reminds me of the death of Helge Boes (3+ / 0-)

      A guy with a jawline not unlike Pat Tillman.  I met him right before he deployed to Afghanistan.  Before he left, he started growing his beard and his skin darkened (tanning salon?).

      Within weeks, he was dead - the victim of a "live exercise hand grenade accident".

      Here's a picture in a German article about his death:

      http://img111.echo.cx/...

      •  During the Cold War, the army used to (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        LAMaestra, kyril

        sneak Army Ranger details behind the Iron Curtain.  (Note--this was before the formation of the Special Forces.)  Whenever possible, they'd send soldiers of Hungarian, Czech, Polish, etc. descent who at least spoke the language passably.

        My father told me that when he was stationed in Germany, whenever he or another ordinary grunt saw some Army Rangers bitching about having to grow their hair out (to 1950's lenghts), they had some vague idea of where those Rangers were about to go.

        People never lie so much as after a hunt, during a war or before an election. --Otto von Bismarck

        by Ice Blue on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 10:54:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I have read your diary twice- (6+ / 0-)

      And I apologize if I missed it, or it is intended to be an undertone-

      Could you please explain your interogative-

      Am I next?

      I ask because "Am I next?" tends to support what you are trying to tamp down, or do not believe is the case-  (Intended takedown vs FF)

      RF in NH

      Evidence that contradicts the ruling belief system is held to extraordinary standards, while evidence that entrenches it is uncritically accepted. -Carl Sagan

      by RF on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 05:49:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I am somewhat worried for you (31+ / 0-)

      this diary has sufficient information to specifically identify you -  the bit about the picture of Gore, for example.  Given that the Chain of Command had been cracking down on individual military members blogging, restricting electronic access and the like, I am hoping for your sake that you do not suffer adverse consequences for posting this.  Perhaps I am a bit paranoid, but I can imagine the missing material from the inventory might be used to make an example of you for speaking out.  I hope my fears are missplaced.

      I served in the Marines in the 1960s.  Most of those with whom I served were good, loyal, dedicated, and patriotic.  There was also a share of those who can best be described either as assholes or as what comes out of an asshole.   Some were unfortunately in positions of authority - NCOs or officers.  I had run-ins with one NCO in particular, but because I was known up the chain of command he was limited in how far he could mess with me.  I am hoping for your sake that you have a similar set of protectors.

      I applaud you for your willingness to serve.  I also applaud you for your willingness to speak out.  

      Peace.

      do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

      by teacherken on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 06:02:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The diary I had hoped I would see here! (10+ / 0-)

      Thank you, RockRichard!

      God, I miss Paul Wellstone.

      by Naniboujou on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 06:40:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  it still hangs today (gore pic) (8+ / 0-)

      that's great. it reminds me of what my Marine buddy told me over beers a few weeks ago. he said he's been riding harleys in town with some old Marines and they have a philosophy that, no matter how much they might disagree with a fellow Marine, "you let a brother say what's on his mind."
      i love that.
      thanks and peace to you Rock Richard.

      "If being an elitist just means not the dumbest motherfucker in the room, then yeah, I'm an elitist." - Get Yer War On

      by sadair on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 07:10:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  *Great diary RockRichard* (5+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      cosbo, revsue, kredwyn, baccaruda, kyril

      and pretty much on target, in my opinion. Although I wouldn't put anything past this bunch of thugs, if they had ordered a hit, Pat Tillman might still be alive today. They have, after all, screwed up everything else they've touched. The possibility does exist that Pat was murdered by someone in his unit because of his political views. Bush and Co. had a lot of people whipped into a patriotic frenzy during that time period, and a lot of people bought into the meme that to oppose Bush in any way made you a traitor. But I think it is much more likely that they thought they could use Tillman as a propaganda tool one last time if they covered up the circumstances of his death.

      I was born a millworker's daughter.....

      by cackyp on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 07:29:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kyril

      You offer a valuable perspective, to belabor the obvious.

      If somebody writes a book and doesn't care for [its] survival, he's an imbecile.

      ~ Umberto Eco

      by Major Danby on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 09:55:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This Diary Is Just So Offbase (13+ / 0-)

      There are so many errors and false arguments in this diary, I am not sure where to begin.

      1.

      This may be true, but do you think it would have changed the course of these wars?  Do you think anyone else thought it would?  

      You ask how Pat Tillman could have changed the course of these wars?  Is this a serious question, or are you joking?  The nation was incredibly tightly divided.  The election was decided by just several thousand votes in two states.  Pat Tillman had legendary almost god-like status to millions of Americans.  He was made into- more than any American- the icon of the virtues of this war.  He was a one man justification. The nation was beginning to tip against the war.  Suspicions were high.  The floor of public support hadn't yet collapsed as it has now, but it was on the verge of giving way.  Had Pat Tillman, the "Greatest American Hero", a god-like figure to red staters, come home and endorsed John Kerry and denounced the war and the Bush administration, there is no way that Bush would have served a second term.  In pre-election polling in 2004, the public sided with Democrats in majority on every single issue polled.  Every single one except the war/national security.  The war was all Bush had.  And it was a time when even that war support was at a tipping point.  Tillman had been lionized.  Remember the impact when Murtha finally spoke out?  If Tillman had done so, the effect would have been far more enormous.  Jack Murtha's a great guy. But he's no Pat Tillman on pure celebrity.  No non-General soldier in American history has had more fame or cache.  To say that he couldn't have tipped a few thousand votes in a couple states is just a patently silly statement.  How can you ask how the war would be different if we had had Kerry as president the last three years.  Come on.  Just come on.  You're sounding like Nader.

      2.

      I have been ridiculed for my beliefs; usually, in jest, but sometimes in serious discussions.  Sometimes the discussions have become heated.  But never have I feared for my safety in a place where everyone walks around with a rifle and ammunition 24/7.  

      With all due respect to your service, you weren't Pat Tillman.  You weren't the most celebrated non-General in this history of the United States armed services.  You weren't the single greatest political military icon in the nation.  You hadn't been made into THE defining face of the war.  The comparison just doesn't function.

      3.

      This is suspicious, but that is all it is: suspicion

      Yes, it is suspicion.  But to say that suspicion is all it is is patently false.  When medical doctors, expert in combat wounds and injuries, suspect murder immediately upon investigating a body, when they make statements saying that the physical evidence does not support any of the incident report, that is a hell of a lot more than just suspicion.  That is horribly damning evidence that demands investigation.

      4.

      I am not an expert in ballistics, and I’d also assume that whoever made a passing observation that the bullet may have come from as close as ten yards is not either.

      This one is so preposterous, I'm surprised you could even type it.  You "assume" that medical doctors serving in a combat zone aren't expert in bullet wounds?  At this point, I'm having a hard time telling whether this diary is serious, or if it's some kind of Saturday Night Live satire piece.  Please, tell me that you're joking about this one.  At least give me that.  Just clear it up and say you're joking.

      5.

      Tillman more than likely had a beard, was not wearing a Kevlar helmet, was wearing a sterilized (meaning nothing that would distinguish him as a U.S. Soldier) uniform if he was wearing a military uniform at all, and wearing gear that was not standard Army issue.

      Well, actually, we have photographs of him from just days before he died.  No beard as you surmise.  He was on patrol and wearing clear Army uniform.  The helmet he may or may not have had.  But former NATO Supreme Allied Commander General Wes Clark- you know the guy?  white hair?  super articulate?- said on Keith Olbermann's show just two nights ago, that he considers it almost inconceivable that Tillman would not have been recognizable by his own men.  He said his uniform would have been clearly distinguishable to anyone.  His weapon would have been clearly distinguishable to anyone.  Etc.  Call me crazy, but I'm gonna go ahead and take General Clark's opinion over yours on this one.

      6.

      Specialist Bryan O’Neal, who witnessed Pat’s death has come clean about the investigation and what happened in that incident. Why would he have only told the partial truth, in acknowledging that Pat died of friendly fire, as opposed to revealing that he was shot intentional from 10 yards away, if that were in fact the case.

      No, in fact, he has not "come clean" as you assert.  He has told a partial version of the events and, to this day, due to the investigation, is restricted in what he may say.  We have no idea what happened.  But we have the incredibly damning opinion of two medical professionals on the scene- experts in battlefield injury- who said the shots were clearly from close range.  And they requested a murder invetigation that was silenced.  We also now have two stories from the military that have both been proven to be lies.    We now have an email chain of two officers congratulating each other on concealing evidence.  And we have Mary Tillman, Pat's mother, who has investigated this more than any civlian in America, who states that the family has had supsicions of assassination and/or murder all along and that the new evidence only re-inforces this.

      Do we know the full details of what happened yet?  Of course not.  But we have more than enough evidence to know that there was a crime.  And we have more than enough evidence to know that the exact details of the crime need to be investigated.

      I'm not sure what the objective was in writing this diary.  But it is riddled with error and false argument.  We have four-star generals demanding a new investigation.  I understand wanting to squash conspiracy theory.  But I cannot understand wanting to call in to question the notion that we should be asking incredibly tough questions at this point- in a passionate public discourse.  People damn well ought to be outraged and askign questions at this point.  It would be a dis-service to justice to want to squash people's concern at this point.  The evidence is horrifically damning.  

      At the end of the day, there is just no way that Mary or Kevin Tillman would agree with the line of argument in this diary.  Their public statements have said as much.  And more.

      "It would send a horrible message to cut and run from Iraq." -Tim Kaine, 2006

      by nocore on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 10:46:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I object to your tone (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        galaxy33, geomoo

        but agree with the substance of what you've said, unfortunately.

        To me, what's most worrisome is the coverup; as I've said elsewhere, it just doesn't make sense for the upper echelons to risk their careers by continuing to cover for a junior enlisted soldier after the public already knows that the death was by "friendly fire." Accident or personal vendetta, either way, any officer I know would've identified the shooter by now and allowed him to be questioned.

        During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

        by kyril on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 11:12:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think the tone is appropriate (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          nocore, kyril

          We have at least a very curious cover-up of a fragging incident or at worst a cover-up of an assassination ordered from the highest levels of our government.

          Either way, it is outrageous to imply that this is no big deal and we should all move along, nothing to see here.

          ¨An inglorious peace is better than a dishonorable war.¨ - Mark Twain

          by Indiana Bob on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 12:46:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No one is saying "no big deal"-- (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            arbiter

            no one. Everyone agrees this story stinks to high heaven, that there's been a cover-up, that a real investigation is necessary, and that any of the possible explanations are likely to be very damaging for the Bush Administration.

            But given how little detail has been made available to us, it's premature to cry wolf. We all found ludicrous the Republican noise machine's propaganda about the "assassination" of Vince Foster. Let's show that we're more rational and responsible. Getting a real investigation into the Tillman incident might actually be harder if it's hyper-politicized prematurely.

            Let's leave it to the Tillman family and their attorneys to make the charge of murder if and when the time comes for this.

        •  ... (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          KenBee, kyril

          I don't blame you.  I was angry and unnecessarily impolite.  Sorry.

          But I stand by the content.

          In any investigation, in any scientific inquiry, in any empirical approach, you do not begin by eliminating possible outcomes before you even explore the evidence.  To do so would be anti-empirical, anti-scientific, anti-intellectual.

          To quote General Wesley Clark from Keith Olbermann's show the other night...

          "If there is even a hint that there is something like a homocide or a murder in this case, it should be fully investigated and proved or disproved.  And we don't know how far up it went, was it the Secretary of Defense's office, was it the White House..."

          These are the types of questions that have to be asked.

          There is simply no empirical or ethical way to state that people shouldn't be asking incredibly tough questions right now- questions that rule out nothing until disproved, no matter how dark or heinous the discoveries may be.

          People ought to be asking about the possibility of murder.  People ought to be asking about the possibility of assassination.  We have a killing and a broadening cover-up. Any prosecutor would be guilty of malpractice for not asking these questions.  And no American, at this moment, should be told that they need to feel hesitant in doing so themselves.

          Far from feeling hesitant to ask the toughest questions, Americans should be rising up and demanding an investigation into all potential scenarios.  And any attempt to make people feel reticent is- intentionally or not- doing a dis-service to justice.

          "It would send a horrible message to cut and run from Iraq." -Tim Kaine, 2006

          by nocore on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 12:54:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  your points are ruined by your rudeness (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        celticshel, EdlinUser, geomoo

        you have some good arguments but you seem too focused on scoring points.

        •  I Agree 100% and Apologize (6+ / 0-)

          I cannot argue this.  

          There was no need for me to write my response in such a rude tone.  And I apologize for that.  But I was furious when I read this diary.  I was furious.

          Intended or not, it functions to make people hesitate in asking the tough questions that need to be asked.  And, intended or not, it undermines the work that the Tillman family has been doing.

          The very types of questions this diary attempts to squash, are the very questions the Tillman family is asking.  In fact, the questions they are asking are even more intense.

          It made me furious to read an attempt at discouraging the toughest questions possible in this matter.

          "It would send a horrible message to cut and run from Iraq." -Tim Kaine, 2006

          by nocore on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 12:14:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I have to agree NoCore... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            JayDean

            Your initial reaction was mine too.  I, though, nearly suspected a troll at the time and was suspicious of the intent of the overall content.  I appreciate your anger and I am not at all offended by your tone.  I think it appropriately came across as it did.  Shake it off.

            Never grow a wishbone, daughter, where your backbone ought to be. Clementine Paddeford

            by blubryeyes on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 12:39:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Nocore, I agree too (0+ / 0-)

            The point about the examiners not being qualified to judge bullet wounds made no sense to me.  Unless  RockRichard knows something about autopsy exams in Afghanistan that we don't know.

            From a crime lab viewpoint, it's possible that military doctors in a combat zone might lack equipment or time to micromeasure the wounds and judge the point and distance the bullets came from well enough to testify to that in a courtroom.  But I can't think of anyone else, outside of a full crime lab, who would be more qualified.  

            It would seem to me that the Rangers area of expertise is in delivering the bullets, and knowing what the results should be.  The doctors expertise encompasses results of bullets in the human body.
            No?

            "'Normal' is a dryer setting. " -- Elizabeth Moon

            by revsue on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 12:58:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  good points (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        brentmack, galaxy33, geomoo

        I believe RockRichards had the best inentions when writing this diary. Unfortunately, the evidence is damning.

        Tillman's family are calling this a politically-motivated murder. Pat's brother was in the same unit and the same region. Why would the family hold that judgement if Pat's brother didn't think the same way?

        •  Tillman's family (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          what if

          They're understandably outraged and have been explicit in charging the Army and the White House with a cover-up, but can you cite where they've actually charged this was a politically-motivated murder? I haven't seen such a statement. Please provide a link.

          •  I stand corrected (0+ / 0-)

            The article I was thinking of never quotes the Tillman family as saying that. However, if you examine the article as a whole, I believe that was the intended message by the author and Mary Tillman.

            http://sfgate.com/...

            •  To requote RetreatHell (0+ / 0-)

              I don't think it is this complex. He was very unlikely "wacked" on orders. If it was intentional, it was probably over some dumb, simple, non-complex shit. Something so stupid and basic that it wouldn't make sense to anyone, except the people who were there.

              I seriously doubt political views had ANYthing to do with it. Every single soldier/marine over there has differing political and religious views, and spends numerous hours on watch discussing/debating/arguing over them. We don't kill someone over that shit. We're not brainwashed retards. You're over-thinking this. I guarantee it is not even close to being this complicated. Think more simplistic...link
              (my emphasis)

              Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

              by kredwyn on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 03:42:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  I understand.. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          geomoo

          As much as they've been lied to, nobody can blame them for thinking the worst.

          A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. -Edward R. Murrow

          by nutmeg on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 11:39:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  well I happen to think (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Tirge Caps

        that this diary was one of the more rational and sensible ones I've read concerning PT. You did, however , make some good points. One being the uniform and beard debunking. But I don't believe Pat Tillman couldve changed the nation's mind about the war in Iraq. He was just one man, and he was serving in Afghanistan, not Iraq, so his opinion, in my opinion , would've changed nothing.

        I'm just happy to finally see a diff diary with diff opinions on the Pat Tillman controversary. It's a nice change of pace. And i am looking forward to reading more unique takes on this issue.

        Ahhh...Bush vetoed the stem cell bill AGAIN! Maybe one of these days I'll walk again when a Dem is made Pres...Some day...

        by RetreatHell on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 12:06:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  And a couple of more points... (0+ / 0-)

        I will join with nocore in disavowing the tone of the above comment, but I want to associate myself with the content.  This diarist's respectful tone, focus on detail, and honest self-revelation set a high standard for us all.  I applaud him for those things and thank God there are people like him serving in the military.

        That being said, I do not assume that his obviously high standards are typical of the service.  In addition to the serious flaws nocore has pointed out, I question the validity of generalizing from this statement, and others like them:

        None of my brothers in arms who are staunch Republicans has disowned me as a battle buddy or fellow Soldier.  No one has ever threatened my life.  I would die for these men, and I believe they would die for me too.

        I ask you, would you have joined with your brothers in arms to cover up the murder of several civilians, including women and children?  I assume not.  Would you join with your brothers in arms in covering up rape of Iraqis, as has been done?  For the sake of your soul, I hope not.

        I hope my point is clear.  I read your diary with appreciation and interest, and I am heartened by it.  But I find you naive in your assumptions that all conditions in all places in the military are blessed with the dedication and integrity you and your brothers in arms demonstrate.

        You fail to address the fact that even from the point of view of an experienced soldier, the military explanation of events leading to the shooting of Pat Tillman pushes the envelope of credulity.  Just for one point--explain a soldier saying that even though he recognized Pat Tillman, he went ahead and fired anyway.  Does that match what you would expect from your brothers in arms?

        From an overall perspective, the people running our government and military have done so many things wrong for so long now that they bear responsibility for the extreme skepticism they face.  They deserve to be challenged and doubted at every turn until they show they have managed to re-capture at least some amount of integrity.

        Thanks again for the diary and service.  I am deeply grateful to hear your voice in this discussion.

        The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

        by geomoo on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 03:43:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for articulating the essential points. n/t (0+ / 0-)

        Isn't it a good feeling when you see the paper in the morning, it says 'Axe Slayer Kills 19' and you say, "They can't pin that one on me!" - Jean Shepherd

        by razajac on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 04:32:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What if he wasn't shot by a soldier? (0+ / 0-)

        There are other US agents inside Afghanistan.  Contractors, CIA....

        The premise of this diary rests heavily upon the notion that soldiers would not intentionally murder one of their own.  In general, that is a good premise.  However, there are at least two things wrong with using this premise to refute the notion that Pat Tillman may have been murdered by some agent(s) of the extremists in the neo-con bunch.

        First, there are exceptions to every rule.  So, however unlikely, it remains possible that some soldier(s) could have murdered Pat Tillman.

        Second, there remains the (un-explored - I think) possibility that there were other agents in the area capable of executing Pat Tillman.

        I address this post to you, nocore, because I think you have developed the most comprehensive analysis thus far of the reasons we should not yet rule out the possibility of murder.  This is intended to be just one more arrow in your quiver.

        I don't know how many contractors and CIA agents may have been present at the scene.  Nor do I know how to find out.  However, without a complete and un-prejudiced investigation, no one who wasn't there will be able to say with any certainty, just what did happen that day.

    •  I too (0+ / 0-)

      It is not greater than a love of family, but it is different and quite possibly equal.  Maybe this is why I married another Soldier.

      Makes sense to me. I did the same thing.

      it tastes like burning...

      by eastvan on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 02:13:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks... (0+ / 0-)

      for service and diary.

      Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

      by kredwyn on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 03:23:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I Cannot See a Ranger Doing Murder This Sloppy (18+ / 0-)

    It would take a lot to convince me...

    We have no intention of prosecuting Rush Limbaugh because lying through your teeth and being stupid isn't a crime.

    by The Baculum King on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 12:29:22 AM PDT

    •  I have a friend (5+ / 0-)

      who was in the Rangers. I try to stay out of his one meter kill zone at all times.

    •  Three shots, tight grouping - sloppy? (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      gabbardd, North Country Dem, kyril

      Helluva shot I'd say, with a clearly plausible alibi.  What's sloppy about that?  

      There are a lot of reasons to deny the political assassination angle, but I've seen nothing that tells me some Ranger didn't just get pissed at Tillman for some reason and squeeze one off during a fire fight.

      I'm with you in dismissing assassination, but ruling out murder based on "sloppy" is premature.  While Rangers may be superb fighting machines, that doesn't make them criminal masterminds. Almost all murders are sloppy, that's why most people get caught.  

      When the oak is felled the whole forest echoes with its fall, but a hundred acorns are sown in silence by an unnoticed breeze. -Thomas Carlyle

      by rb608 on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 05:26:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  blockquote (9+ / 0-)

        Three shots, tight grouping - sloppy?

        an M-4 or M-16 shoots a three round burst, so this is no feat.

        VetVoice.com, The Voice of America's 21st Century Patriots.

        by RockRichard on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 05:28:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I understand that; (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Anglico, tle, North Country Dem, kyril

          but another military Kossack in another of these diaries stated that with the recoil effects, the three rounds would still be difficult to place close together, except at close range.  Regardless of the ability of the shooter, however, accomplishing this, feat or no feat, would seem (to me) to indicate aimed shots that went exactly where intended.  Not sloppy.

          When the oak is felled the whole forest echoes with its fall, but a hundred acorns are sown in silence by an unnoticed breeze. -Thomas Carlyle

          by rb608 on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 06:03:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Emotions are refractory (4+ / 0-)

            especially ones like fear.

            Psychologists have shown that the mind does not process  contradictory information properly when experiencing fear.  It is biased towards confirmatory data.

            The person who shot Pat Tillman might well have seen everything, but if he had already concluded that he was in a kill or be killed confrontation only those aspects reflecting threat may have been used in the decision to pull the trigger. Hopefully training would stay that impulse, but training only goes so far.  Given a high enough fear level, an ordinary person might well have pulled the trigger, believing Tillman to be an enemy, even though his eyes should have told him otherwise.

            I've lost my faith in nihilism

            by grumpynerd on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 07:07:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Unless The Shots Came From an M249 (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            kredwyn

            The Squad Automatic Weapon has a bipod and weighs twice as much as an M16 so it could fire a very tight group from a longer distance.

            Here's a video of a guy with a RPG getting stitched by a SAW.

            http://www.strategypage.com/...

            I'm not a military type, but this guy gets what he deserved. What looks like the last round is pretty amazing because you can see the tracer hit him in the sternum and a spray of burning metal fragments exit his back.

        •  Thank you (0+ / 0-)

          That answered one of my big questions.

          A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. -Edward R. Murrow

          by nutmeg on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 11:42:58 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  murder is never neat and proper (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Indiana Bob, kyril

      Why not?  Just because someone is a Ranger means that there will be no blood when they murder someone?  Pat Tillman was one badass macho man.  Whoever was going to take him out knew they were going to face a hell of a fight.  His murder was not going to be anything but sloppy.

      It never ceases to amaze me that after 6 years of the most criminal inhumane and just plain incomprehensible evil of this band of thieves in the White House there are still intelligent people who go out of their way to give them the benefit of the doubt they never deserved from Day One.

      •  If a Ranger Plans a Murder in Advance (0+ / 0-)

        The fact that it WAS murder will not be obvious. Covering their tracks is something they are quite good at, in every respect.

        We have no intention of prosecuting Rush Limbaugh because lying through your teeth and being stupid isn't a crime.

        by The Baculum King on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 01:24:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Crime of passion? (0+ / 0-)

      Im not saying I believe he was purposely murdered by a ranger, but is it possible it wasn't planned? Maybe someone got really pissed off at him for something?

      I don't know. I just know nobody can say that just because someone is a ranger they aren't capable of rage.

      A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. -Edward R. Murrow

      by nutmeg on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 11:41:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  A necessary and well-done rebuttal. (23+ / 0-)

    Thanks.

    I'm not gonna posit any further on this controversy.

    "Go well through life"-Me (As far as I know) Newly added-You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams. Dara Torres-Beijing Olympics

    by MTmofo on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 12:36:20 AM PDT

    •  RockRichard (18+ / 0-)

      Thank you for a clean, coherent, orderly, thoughtful diary. Well done. Sensible, logical points.

      Once in a while, I find a diary or comment and collect a sense of the person behind the words. Tonight, reading this, I felt as if you were talking to me, face to face.

      Thank you for your service. It's good to know you're looking out for some of our kids in uniform.

      Best wishes,
      Coolwateroverstones ~

      •  I agree ... (20+ / 0-)

        ... but this "point" is worth thumbing to see if it is sharp:

        I cannot believe that a Commander at any level would order the death of one of his men.

        I, too, would not believe this -- but belief should have nothing to do with a discussion about murder.  That it does so here, in this way, is normal.  The diarists is saying, in essence, "based on my experience, this couldn't have happened".  The reason diaries such as the one this diarist is attempted to refute come into existence is precisely because we have lived for at least six years in a hoax world.  We are finally learning that, in fact, that much of what we accept as "unbelievable" is true.  We have had near weekly reminders that people entrusted with the public good are traitors to it.  That Catholic Church had a decades long program (in effect) of providing safe haven for pederasts, and lied about it, is simply a blueprint for understanding why "I cannot believe" is a flaccid bulwark against the truth.  Today, the unbelievable is commonplace: The US Gov't has been spying wholesale on US citizens, and lying about it;  the US military has been torturing prisoners -- to death --  and lying about it;  the President of the United States has ordered war against a small regional power (a war crime according the Nuremberg tribunal), and lied about the reasons behind it.  Most of these lies continue to be told today.

        I NEVER thought my beloved country would commit war crimes, would embrace torture as policy, and would strip its citizens of their right to a day in court.  I NEVER thought the rule of law (even shoddily practiced) would simply be set aside at the whim of a criminal conspiracy placed in power by judicial fiat.  But those things have come to pass.  No American should get past breakfast today without stopping and questioning him or herself anytime they think "I cannot believe ... ".  The lesson of our time is that the possibility of human misbehavior -- no matter how evil -- is near at hand.

        Mine is not an argument for the deliberate assassination of Mr. Tillman.   I am arguing against "I can't believe it" as a useful tool for making sense of our Bushist world.  We can still find the truth -- and I applaud the entire attitude of this diary.  Yet we must suspend our disbelief while we hold the lantern of understanding aloft.

        Two war crimes make 'the right', not 'a right'. Defeat the liar John McCain.

        by Yellow Canary on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 07:06:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Tangential Question-- (8+ / 0-)

    classified as "non-conventional". [....]   if he was wearing a military uniform at all

    Isn't that the definition of an illegal combatant, spy at minimum?

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 12:44:52 AM PDT

    •  asdf (11+ / 0-)

      Lawful combatant:

      To qualify for prisoner of war status persons waging war must have the following characteristics to be protected by the laws of war:

      Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict
      or members of militias not under the command of the armed forces
      that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
      that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
      that of carrying arms openly;
      that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
      or are members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
      or inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

      These kind of forces absolutely carry arms openly, and usually have an American Flag somewhere on their gear conspicuously.  I didn't mean to give the impression that these guys do this sort of thing for deception.  They merely wear whaterver is practical for their mission.  If something they can find and purchase themselves is more practicle than the standard issue uniform, they wear it.

      VetVoice.com, The Voice of America's 21st Century Patriots.

      by RockRichard on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 01:18:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If you look at pictures of these guys (6+ / 0-)

      You'll notice that no matter how irregular their uniform, there's almost always an American flag somewhere on it. The issue you just raised is the reason why.

  •  You are right to withhold judgment (42+ / 0-)

    but still, I am holding my nose against the stench of this whole situation. Death is one thing, death by friendly fire yet another, but the cover-up is too much. You found this statement:

    Pat Tillman's voice against the war would have been DEVASTATING to Bush in the SUMMER of 2004.

    and reply:

    This may be true, but do you think it would have changed the course of these wars?  Do you think anyone else thought it would?  

    Frankly, I do think this Propaganda 24/7 government we have would think it might. I think Karl Rove might, for starters, and Rumsfeld, too. Might indeed.

    You say:

    The Administration not releasing documents should not lead anyone to believe any thing other than that they are conducting business as usual.  More, than likely, this is to shield additional military personnel from being named in the cover-up.

    Maybe I'm just sick to death of business as usual. Business as usual, you must understand, is now lying, thieving, swiftboating, killing, election frauding, and getting revenge at all costs. That's just the shortlist.

    Do I think anything is proven yet? Of course not.
    Do I think it is remotely possible that our government might be complicit in acts that are immoral, illegal, or both? You betcha.

    "There are four boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order." Ed Howdershelt

    by JuliaAnn on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 12:51:33 AM PDT